SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hey LT —

I guess I had previously overlooked the idea that D isn’t an option at all for you.

And again, I understand hanging in there for your faith, and your want of keeping the M together — up to a point.

As I’ve noted before, faith and holding up my end of the vows is a big deal to me, however, I had to include D as a possible outcome. I had to include every possible outcome to heal.

It is important to add, I never weaponized divorce to get changes I wanted from my wife, that doesn’t work anyway. The changes to be a better partner had to come from my wife.

The reason D was on the table, because there was a time when the pain was too much and it wasn’t good for me or her.

Once I let go of holding on to the M (sounds weird) — I started to heal.

Once I understood I would be okay again, regardless of the outcome, it gave the relationship room to reset.

For your particular position, it sounds counterintuitive to mention D at all, but it could change the dynamic or the effort of your wife to help you heal the M.

Either way, it does sound like you all need another MC/IC who understands the pain of infidelity better.

FWIW, my MC asked us to avoid infidelity websites too, and I told him that while SI can be a trigger, it was far more helpful than hurtful.

Every once in a while, I feel like I'm starting to turn the corner and be okay. And then, thoughts of her ongoing betrayal revisit, and I'm back down in the dumps, feeling depressed. Is this grieving? If so, 25 years and I'm still grieving.

My wife's continued dishonesty, deliberately telling me lies, is eating away at me. Why would she sit down with me, tell me a detailed account of her first time being intimate with him, assuring me that I now know the truth, and only one week later tell me a completely different story? A different time, place, what happened, etc.

Through this experience, I've learned that while the intimacy is painful and difficult to hear, the lies are much worse. I have lost trust in her—my best friend!

I feel so alone at times that I don't know where to turn. Due to my work, I must present myself to the world as put-together and competent. But as a person, I'm broken. As I've said, it's like the cardiologist battling heart disease. Her ongoing lies—her continued betrayal—are destroying my life.

I only hope that with time she will understand my need for the truth—to understand reality—as much as she needs me to understand her need to bury it.

Can I ask you one question that I really need help with? What do you do when you have intrusive thoughts of your partner with their lover?

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/how-to-stop-mind-movies/

This article on Mind Movies is in the Healing Library and has some tips for this. For me, I did a lot of mindfulness exercises that my betrayal trauma therapist had me do. Another thing that helped me was learning meditation. It helped me to do some cleansing breaths and focus on breathing & focusing on my center.

It can take a while for you to find what works for you.

Have you discussed neural pathways with your psychiatrist? It's possible that you've thought in this pattern that you've developed a neural pathway that just goes there. It's like your brain creates a channel to those memories and it's like a well-worn path that your brain takes because it's the path of least resistance. I hope that makes sense. It's been some time since I was reading articles on betrayal trauma and neural pathways.

ETA: We're D, if that makes any difference to you. XWH couldn't keep his hands to himself.

[This message edited by leafields at 11:52 PM, Tuesday, September 30th]

I've been lurking on this thread, and I'm sorry you're still going through this all these years later.

I'm 6 months post D Day and I'm going through the same thing. I've written down a list of questions that if I was sat in a room with WS and AP, what I'd want to know. I've so far filled 2 pages full. His story changes and his answer to a lot of things has now become "because I was an idiot"

He started the affair with a work colleague. Our baby was 6 weeks old, my dad died suddenly and I was suffering from PND. The night of the day he died he went on a planned night out and slept with her in a hotel room. I needed him so badly that night and in the coming weeks, instead he was off seeing her.

I've become secretly obsessed with wanting to know every single detail about their affair, including the impossible question - why did it happen? I keep an eye on her family's social media accounts as that's how the affair came out. I've found out where she lives, and even have visited the car park they numerously slept together in whilst my world was falling apart, hoping it would bring me some peace. Even though it's just made things worse.

I need to just let it go, for our family's and our sake but I'm so hurt by it all. I completely understand where you're coming from.

I wanted to know everything. At one point our MC said "You need to get to a point where you feel you know enough to move on" and I said "No, I want to know everything because I need to know who I am married to and if this is someone I want to stay married to."

That paused that conversation for a few seconds ;) but it's true. If you think your spouse had only exchanged a few texts with someone but down the road you discover it was a full blown EA/PA that went on for weeks,months,years, well that kinda changes EVERYTHING

But, once you are told something you can never unhear it, so there is a risk in asking for details.

I don't know what's happening to me right now. Nothing feels real. Don't need the hospital. I'm safe but feeling completely numb. Unreality.

Can I ask you one question that I really need help with? What do you do when you have intrusive thoughts of your partner with their lover?

If you figure that out, let me know.

At almost 6 months out from d day those intrusive thoughts are becoming more infrequent for me, but I had a bit of a meltdown yesterday when unexpectedly triggered while showering with my wife in the morning, and it ruined most of the day for us. We ended up going to bed peacefully and reassuring each other, but it was a rough day for us both. I sometimes get stuck in a loop of reliving memories, both real and imagined, and it gets to be overwhelming for me. I got suddenly quiet, and in the interest of not beating a dead horse was going stay quiet and just suck it up, but she knew something was wrong and insisted I get it out. So I didn't hold much back. Like I said, it was a rough day from there out until later in the afternoon when I calmed down and we started really talking about it.

You're not alone in this tho. Not by a longshot.

I'm sorry you're struggling, too, Pogre.

This forum is invaluable because this topic is not one you can discuss with just anyone. I feel a strong sense of connectedness here. Thank you, my friends.

I was searching on YouTube this morning to learn anything I could to quell my unbearable pain and stop crying—and I heard something that I had never heard before:

Infidelity is not about what the betrayer did—but the impact on the betrayed.

I find this particularly helpful and validating because all efforts to help us have been directed toward my wife having to explain what she did and why she did it. And then being further betrayed by her changing, grossly inconsistent stories and lies. Feeling no trust and her ongoing deceit hurts me the most.

Not one mental health professional focused on the impact on me. This single statement validated my pain and has me thinking that it's okay to feel broken after she recently changed her narrative, in one week, from, "You were everything I wanted," to "I didn't love you enough"—weeks before our wedding day when she was in his bed—and for years thereafter.

On "our" wedding day, I was in love with the most beautiful woman I had ever met. Our wedding song was, "You're My Everything"—well, except for her secret lover. I just earned a doctorate and felt that I was at my very best. I was so proud to be her husband. How dare she confront me today and ask why I no longer wear my wedding band? Our vows meant everything to me and absolutely nothing to her.

I've got to address the impact on me and stop focusing on the self-centered, destructive choices she made that continue to destroy my life!

What are your thoughts about this?

[This message edited by low tide at 6:28 PM, Friday, October 3rd]

I’m going throw this out there from left field.

Is it possible that each time she tells you a different story, that she believes that’s the same story she’s been telling you all along? As in, mental illness?

I mean, a couple decades of lying I would think even the lie would solidify in her mind as the truth and would be repeated fairly the same way.

I can only associate maliciousness as a possible explanation otherwise.

OhItsYou,

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

I don't see her lying as malicious or reflective of mental illness (I'm in the mental health field). I see it as a way, as she described, as preserving her "dignity" and fearing my reaction—distress.

Today was a big day, it's the first time in decades that I realized that her infidelity was not about what she did—but how her infidelity affected me.

Instead of beating myself up, I'm allowing myself to be angry at her. And tonight, for the first time, when she said, "I'll find a place and leave," I said, "I'll help you."

I'm not sure where this strength is coming from, but I'm done being the victim. She will have to tell me a consistent narrative, or she can leave. I believe in evidence-based care. And I know that the literature is very clear, in order to have a chance at reconciliation, the betrayer MUST be willing to tell the whole truth and give the betrayed the opportunity to process reality and, ultimately, decide what's in their best interest.

I’ve struggled with the faith component. I eventually settled on treating as a lawyer would and for whatever reason it clicked in my brain. Faith dictates that a vow is between two people. She unilaterally dissolved the vow through her actions. The vow is no longer material to your spiritual, ethical or moral convictions as it simply ceased to exist when she dissolved it.

You still have your own spiritual directives, moral makeup and ethics. For example, it wouldn’t be right for you to enter in a new relationship because there are a number of factors that good people take into consideration when making a decision. The vow isn’t one of them any more, but you’re still a good guy and have to do things that a good guy would. Staying in the marriage isn’t something that I see governed by any of those things. In fact, if you take a faith based approach then know that challenges are put in front of you because God knows that you can handle them and that handling them is critical to making you into a better version of yourself. Fear and uncertainty are what the bad spirits want us to feel all the time. Do not give them that power. They suck.

I'm not sure where this strength is coming from, but I'm done being the victim. She will have to tell me a consistent narrative, or she can leave. I believe in evidence-based care. And I know that the literature is very clear, in order to have a chance at reconciliation, the betrayer MUST be willing to tell the whole truth and give the betrayed the opportunity to process reality and, ultimately, decide what's in their best interest.

I dont know where it came from either, but I'm glad you found it. I think this is a breakthrough moment for you. Genuinely friend, I've been following 3 of your threads now, and it kind of made my morning to read your last post. Stay strong. Stick to your guns, continue to lean on that newfound strength, and maybe you can start processing and healing. I don't normally speak for others, but I think it's safe for me to say that we're all pulling for you here,

Thank you, Pogre.

Your words mean more to me than you know.

After resisting the unsettling words I was reading in this forum, I'm allowing myself to be receptive to the different thoughts, feelings, and experiences of others. I find it fascinating that my wife and psychiatrist have both told me to stay away from survivor forums! That's akin to saying, stay away from the truth—reality!

This realization has changed me, and I hope it empowers others, too: It’s Not About What the Betrayer Did — It’s About the Impact on the Betrayed

I'm finally introspecting and asking myself what I need. Should I end this relationship? Or, should I end my life? The latter was always an option—years ago, I coded multiple times with a failed suicide attempt to escape the pain of betrayal. I'm not going to hide it. I share it to help others who may be feeling the same way.

Today, I feel a strong desire to live. With her being honest and forthcoming—or with her leaving and opening her legs to the next guy that comes along. It's been said by the analysts that depression is anger turned inward. And when the patient turns it outward, it's a step toward healing. For now, as I regularly say to my patients, I'm riding the emotional roller coaster.

Thank you all for caring. It's the only genuine support I have.

Ask your therapist – and google the subject – about the reliability of memory.
Probably find the best info on this by looking at how witness statements are evaluated/valued in court proceedings.

You will find out that a prosecutor will only rely on witness statements if the events are relatively recent, he can have several witnesses with comparable stories, and the statements can be corroborated with more solid evidence. Once the events go 3-5 years in the past... they lose value because the defense can often shoot holes into the witness reliability.

It’s not that a witness lies, but rather that memory fails and can be filled up with what is thought is correct and true.
Imagine you were asked about a car-crash you had 10 years ago... You might remember the big elements. Like your car was totaled, you broke your arm and got a big gash on your forehead. You might also remember that this was late evening, the weather was dry, you were driving home from a meal at Joe’s Diner and that you were in the white Ford you had back then. That his insurance compensated you 5000. You could pass a poly if asked about this issue because this is the truth according to you.
Now imagine that for some reason we had to really dive into that event. We might check your bank-statements and see you went to Steakhouse and not Joe’s. We might see that at that time you owned a white Mazda. We might find weather reports stating occasional rain. The compensation was 10k... In a court of law the attorney countering the witness would hammer on that if one (or more) factors aren’t correct – then why believe anything the witness says.
This is why a good attorney will try to corroborate anything of value the witness might say. Like in the above example – have evidence to support that you actually did also have a white Ford.

What I might be trying to get across is that maybe your wife’s memory isn’t that reliable, and even that each and every version she shares is "true" to her.
Not only that – but a constant barrage of having her "truth" refuted creates a mental state where she is constantly adjusting the "truth" because her past "truth" was disputed. You on the other hand OF COURSE doubt whatever "truth" she says because it changes and varies and is refuted again and again. It’s a catch-22 situation where even if she told you the absolute truth you wouldn’t have reason to believe her.

So what to do?
Well... What level of "truth" are you after? Maybe only a broad-brush truth can be attained. What factors of her story can you corroborate with other evidence? Like phone records, bank-statements, diary entries...
What can your therapist suggest as "truth" treatments? Like hypnosis is generally considered effective. A controlled environment and having her story transcribed. A decision to accept that a) what she states at some point will be the base you work from and/or b) your "truth" will be what you can corroborate and focus on the "now" rather than the "then".

As is you two are simply going circles. You demand the truth, she states the truth, you doubt it, you demand the truth, she states a new truth, you doubt it, you demand.... and so on and so on. With a happy therapist who can see the ongoing argument pay for his new pool...

Incidentally: a polygraph won’t help at all in this situation. I think that each time she says the truth she believes it is the truth. Like if I think 2+2=5 then I would pass a poly with that answer.

You were angry at me on my first post on your thread for suggesting you break a circle. In that one, I suggest you call her out when she says she would leave this marriage if she could. I suggested you show her that she can. After all – the decision to never divorce not matter what is YOUR decision and does not bind her. The thought there is that once you are penned into a corner and have lost all your excuses you might focus on solutions rather than your misery. If she no longer can hide behind wanting out – because she was offered that path but didn’t take it – she might focus on how to fix these issues.
As-is we have the two of you where you demand the truth (that she might not be capable of offering as-is), she wails that she wants out (yet does nothing to get out) and you insisting you don’t have any other option...
My suggestions – both then and this one – is more geared up to you two breaking out of this vicious and pointless circle. Before the therapist sees you as a ticket to a lakeside house...

Bigger,

I appreciate your assertive and thoughtful response. And your closing statement was validated when I told my psychiatrist I'll see him in a month for medicine management, and he responded, "I have an opening for you next week." My guess is that his dishwasher is in disrepair.

The bottom line is that I needed to let my anger out and stop beating myself up.

You and our friends in the forum have helped me to have a better understanding of how to navigate this storm.

Thank you.

LT, here's a reply I just posted that maybe you could relate to, and understand where I'm coming from with some of my replies to you.

https://survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=666023&ap=21#mid8879105

I know some of the advice you've been given was probably painful to read and came across as harsh, but it really does come from a good place and is meant to nudge you to break that circle Bigger talks about and help get you out of this destructive cycle. I'm hopeful that these are your first steps in that direction.

Can I make a suggestion?
Sometimes when I’m dealing with tough tasks or negotiations we get bogged down in some issue. That issue might be big and we really need to work it through. But if we have spent days without resolve then sometimes it pays to set it aside and work on something else for some time. Knowing well that at some point (and not far in the future...) that big issue needs to be dealt with.

You focus on your wife’s changing stories and the truth AND I GET THAT. However I have shared how I don’t think she is capable of giving you the truth in such a way that you will believe you have it. I have also suggested alternatives such as hypnosis where maybe the hypnotist (make certain it’s a certified IC) or your therapist leads her on with the truth (and maybe even questioning parts of it as it goes along) and giving you a written timeline.

MAYBE while you contemplate how to get your truth – MAYBE you and your wife focus on another task with the MC. Maybe something smaller, like improving how you feel in each others company. Maybe something just as large as her statement she would get out if she could. What might happen is that if you make progress in one or more areas you (read she...) might be happier with opening up to make progress in other areas – and that’s when the BIG issue is placed on the table.

I love your last couple of posts too LT.

While plenty of people see anger as not productive, I disagree to an extent. Anger can be a great motivator to get things done, as I think you’re seeing in yourself now. Then later on, all you have to be angry about is not doing it sooner.

A whole lot of WSs act like yours when they feel no urgency to their situation. It’s probably the primary reason a WS like pogre’s came around as quickly as she did because after a short pick me game, he got angry and started making moves to rid his WS out of his life.
Yours may or may not act the same. It’s been a long time so I think it would be awhile before she stops believing you wouldn’t leave no matter what.

Thank you all for your ongoing thoughts and efforts to help.

Having been with my wife, and only with my wife, since she was 15 and I was 17, there's a different dynamic here. We grew up as best friends, with the understanding that we would only be with each other until death do us part.

Well, I maintained my vows, and they meant nothing to her. She was in another man's bed weeks before our wedding day and continued in his bed for years after we married. I understand why many of you say that I should have considered divorce, divorced, separated, etc. It's just not an option for me.

Despite her actions, I remain deeply in love with her, and I see her behavior as part of "in sickness and in health"—unequivocal sickness—as she continues to lie about what happened—ongoing betrayal.

What is literally killing me are her regular doses of lies. Since I don't know what happened, my mind is preoccupied with obsessions and rumination that persist without stopping. I have taken over a dozen different psychotropic medications, and none have eased the pain—only created more problems with benzodiazepine dependence and side effects from other meds.

I have seen several different therapists and have been unable to gain control over the intrusive thoughts and painful feelings. I feel like I'm treading water in a hurricane.

I will continue to ask for the truth—until I hear a consistent narrative of what happened and why.

Until then, has anyone found a particular strategy to stop the painful obsessions and rumination? I honestly don't want to be alive, but I will not harm myself, understanding the impact on others in my life. It's that painful.

Thank you for being there for me. —Feeling so alone and hopeless.

low tide, I popped in here because of your post in General, and I'm glad to see you still posting.

Regarding the ruminations, the only thing that worked for me was distraction - tv shows, movies, really good books or video games - anything that would keep my mind occupied with other thoughts. I avoided anything to do with romance or relationship dramas and gravitated toward action, fantasy/science fiction, murder mysteries, etc.

I know the feeling you describe well ("I honestly don't want to be alive, but I will not harm myself") having spent many years feeling that way myself. I'm sorry that you're in so much pain, and I hope you find your way out of it someday.