SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I doubt that I could have become softer toward my W at the time.

This was more than 4 years after Dday. The problem was that, other than not cheating anymore, my H hadn't made any significant progress. Maybe if he had, I could've done what the MC suggested. The suggestion was made within the context of our general relationship health, not the infidelity.

I still struggle with being softer and gentler in my approach to my H. My nature is to be straightforward and mater-of-fact. Tact is not one of my strong suits. When I think of that wrt my H, I think he's a 55yo man. He needs to grow a backbone.

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 4:47 PM, Sunday, December 28th]

Am I missing something here?

Just got out of MC and my WW talked about opening a bank account and hiring a divorce consultant, hiding her financial activity, and running this by her friends, confidant and IC to hide this all from me. She said she would do it all over again as it was reasonable and prudent.

We had talked about this multiple times and she lied about it each time (including in MC). It wasn't until I asked her about the receipts that she disclosed she had a secret account.

I am floored and don't see a way forward when lying and hiding activity is ok with my WW and her support network. I don't understand how this could be true. None of my friends or my IC have ever suggested being dishonest with WW.

I'm not sure WW is being honest that she has all this support TBH. She just refuses to be seen as having done anything "wrong" in the past few years.

I am hurt, but not reeling. I think this is fairly clear and untenable.

I am sorry but she is not remorseful. She is defensive and does not have empathy for the pain caused by her lies and betrayal. You deserve a partner who loves you and is honest. Not a WW who is unfaithful and lies to you and hides her actions. You need to take action for you. Don’t buy her excuse that she had support for her deceptions. She knew it was wrong to hide these actions. That’s why she hid them. You cannot control her or force her to change. You can only value yourself and demand respect and commitment in your M. If she is unwilling to change you do not have much of a choice moving forward.

I'm not sure WW is being honest that she has all this support TBH.

Who knows what they’re telling her. But what’s she telling them? I doubt it’s anything that makes her look bad.

Is the MC still prodding you for change?

I think this is fairly clear and untenable.

So, what are your plans now that you've reached this conclusion?

First: self care with detachment, reflection and destress. Write down my thoughts.

Then: checkin with my supports. IC, best friend. Write out my thoughts.

If I’m still in a no-win situation, file for divorce.

Contacting a divorce attorney needs to be on that list. Your WW has.

It’s been over two years since my WW (43F) had her first of two As. DD was 12/23/2023. As soon as I (47M) confronted her on DD, all sex and physical contact between us stopped. Her decision.

We have been in MC and IC for over two years and she is still "not feeling like" having sex or any physical contact. I’m going crazy.

She continues to not feel in love and yet wants to work things out. She is always busy with her girl friends and work. I get left holding down the house and taking care of the kids while she plays away from the house. I’ve just about had it.

If it wasn’t for our two awesome kiddos, I’d have left a long time ago. Help! At what point do I just call it quits?

I do not sugar coat things, I want you to talk and listen to your inner self and stop running from what your soul already tells you. For both yours and your wife's good.

What will you hear is an answer you already given yourself right here.

-What is a couple?

Is the bond 2 Adults attracted to each other

- What is attraction?

Is the polarity between the 2, pulling each one into the other like gravity

- What is love?

Is the irresistible connection you both feel when you merge your both "selves". You are the reflection of 2 already whole, complete people into something greater that makes you both grow and evolve.

- What is sex?

It is the physical manifestation of the love bond that drives you both into sharing intimacy, mental, emotional, physical. Is not "intercourse" (that is reductive) it is the foundation of what makes you a bonded couple and not just friends.

This is why you feel both in cognitive dissonance and unhappy.

Your view of love is masculine, you feel committed so it is a monolithic understanding, inseparable from physical, emotional, mental, and practical, all is focused on her.

Her view is feminine, it is more articulated: she sees love as Eros (the lovers' love, the fiery passion and gravity towards each other), Philia (the bond between friends, close people), Storge (the unconditional love between parents and their children) and Agape (the idea of love like the empathy for humanity)

A woman can feel still in love with you (Philia, Agape) but "not in love" anymore (no Eros for you, that's reserved for her AP)

You feel this, and suffer it as confusion.

She may truly mean it when she says that she would like to "make things work" between you two. She might be sincere and not "using you" as you probably fear. But she is not offering you the version of love that you truly crave, that was given to the OM, that is why she was having the affair.

You are both having deep unfulfilled needs, she already crossed the line where she finds what she feels missing (Eros) in the arms of another man. She feels the guilt that she cannot give it to you and offers you Philia and Agape.

You both suffer and grow further apart.

But you know all this already, I just put it into plain words.

It's up to you now to take steps towards re establishing your boundaries of what your relationship must be for existing, because you are both trying to perform it as an echo of what used to be before things went astray, and this eats you both inside.

She already took her steps in the way her nerve system and internal issues knew how to (the affair with another man).

And she lost respect of you at some point in the process: without respect, no woman can feel attraction for her man.

Now you must decide if you will let her lead towards this way again (think it as "abandoning" a woman who can only see that way out, leaving her to decide alone following her conflicting emotions), or will you step up and take the lead.

Careful of what this means: it's not emotional, it is not a stereotype, she craves your participation in a different way, but just as much as you miss hers.

So taking the lead means not "argue" or "fight" or "resent her", it requires deep emotional maturity:

- Accept what you already know and you already see with clarity.

- Define your boundaries for yourself clearly.

- Whenever she violates one, protect it, not with reaction, but with the natural consequences that implies

- Live your own life without projecting your insecurities outwards into her: she must come back into your world, you cannot drag her by force

In a way, regain your masculine center, hold your frame. Let her feel it. She knows your door is open, but she must step back into your world (yours as an individual and your bond's world as a couple).

You can do it immediately, but you need to accept clearly what you already know.

This will, at the very least, earn back her respect. If she really longs for your relationship to "work out" this is the foundational step she needs to rekindle her attraction. She biologically cannot feel it back if that is missing.

Be honest with yourself, you need to regain the respect for you first. She is a woman, very intuitive about your frame, to a level that we hardly comprehend, it is biological, so if you only pretend or act, it will not work, she will see through it, and she will drift.

You must feel it, absorb it. Remember this:

There is nothing wrong with you, it is your pain and your fears and your wounds that made you collapse. Understand this and respect the person you see in the mirror.

It's her wounds, fears and insecurities she reflected in the affair. She needs to feel again you are her safe man to come back fully. She does not hate you, she misses you as you made her feel.

I wish you good luck to you both, I know what is expecting you: if you can do it you might both come back stronger than you ever were, or realize it is time for you both to move on.

But at least you will have again with mutual respect, not resentment

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 9:47 AM, Sunday, January 11th]

" Your view of love is masculine, you feel committed so it is a monolithic understanding, inseparable from physical, emotional, mental, and practical, all is focused on her.

Her view is feminine, it is more articulated: she sees love as Eros (the lovers' love, the fiery passion and gravity towards each other), Philia (the bond between friends, close people), Storge (the unconditional love between parents and their children) and Agape (the idea of love like the empathy for humanity)

A woman can feel still in love with you (Philia, Agape) but "not in love" anymore (no Eros for you, that's reserved for her AP)"

I’m going to think about this, a long time.

Thanks

" Your view of love is masculine, you feel committed so it is a monolithic understanding, inseparable from physical, emotional, mental, and practical, all is focused on her.

Her view is feminine, it is more articulated: she sees love as Eros (the lovers' love, the fiery passion and gravity towards each other), Philia (the bond between friends, close people), Storge (the unconditional love between parents and their children) and Agape (the idea of love like the empathy for humanity)

A woman can feel still in love with you (Philia, Agape) but "not in love" anymore (no Eros for you, that's reserved for her AP)"

I’m going to think about this, a long time.

Thanks

You are welcome.

It is important that we understand to some extent how the opposite sex processes love.

For normal couples is important because it is key for happiness and fulfillment

For R couples is even more important. Unfulfilled emotions are often what pushed a WS to do what they did.

Because when you "get them" you can put in the work to make sure your partner truly has it all from you.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 10:50 AM, Monday, January 12th]

So I contacted an attorney and was ready to sign on the line to initiate the divorce. I have something to run by this group...

Had a long talk with my wife and she brought up how she feels unsafe again. (This has been brought up many times and she refuses to elaborate.) This time she said her unsafe feelings come from a particular interaction with me.

When she was in the midst of her affair, she was blaming me for all sorts of things, telling me she's never felt loved by me and saying that she needs space. I made a huge mistake here and pursued her persistently as none of this made sense to me. I have since grown a lot in how I would handle something like this in my future.

She says that me not leaving her alone (she wanted to not speak with me for weeks on end (while living in the same house with our two girls) made her feel unsafe and that she couldn't trust me.

So I see an opportunity for reconciliation here. There finally is definition to this barrier that she claims is the reason she can not reconnect with me. Part of me thinks this is all bullshit. I also am keeping my shit together that the only time in our 23 years together that she felt this way was while she was having an affair and this is "all my fault..."

I realized that I was going through hell and doing the best I could. I wish I was in a better, more secure place at that time and could have just let her go. But I didn't and I do believe that her not feeling safe was a direct result of this interaction. I want to clarify that all I did was want to keep talking. She said that his was emotionally abusive and I think that is perhaps an exaggeration.

She also declared that she was going sober for Jan, Feb and half of March (coincides with her busy work season). She started drinking again Jan 17.

I'm trying to be open here, but also not holding my breath at all.

The attorney is cued up. I know what the process will be for me and I'm at peace with moving forward with the divorce if this opening doesn't amount to any progress.

I just came across your post on D/S in the Fear vs Reality thread, and you listed a lot of legit fears, so then I wondered what ever happened as it was the last post and was quite a while ago. So while you have a lot of reasons to be concerned about D, that doesn't mean she isn't full of b.s. designed to slow down your getting free of this abusive M. It just sounds like you have endured this so long. I am sorry.

RiverswithFish:

Call your attorney and pull the trigger on the divorce filing. Just because you file, doesn't mean a judge signs the divorce decree the next day... it will take time, you'd be surprised- by the end of it, you will be questioning if your attorney is really working on your case diligently or not. In the petition, ask for exclusive use of the family home (if allowed in your state,) child support and spousal support/alimony since you're a SAHD. Let your WW feel some consequences and literally start paying for her actions. You haven't made it real for your WW yet, she's been playing you for 2 years if not longer. She will feel it when she writes her first check to you and realizes that each month for the next several years she will be writing similar checks each month... BTW also ask for her to pay your attorney fees in the petition (again if allowed in your state.)

Hope you've been documenting her alcohol abuse... make sure to ask for absolute sobriety for her during any visitation with your girls, if not supervised visitation may need to be considered.

And her excuse for why she felt "unsafe" when you wanted to talk with her is total BS! Just know if you had given her space and not talked with her she would now be claiming that you abandoned and neglected her during that time. Don't try to win or reason with this argument, it's total BS.

I hope this helps with the "unsafe" thing.

During one of our arguments after DDay, my husband said he didn’t feel safe talking to me because I would get angry, and the "proof" of this so-called anger issue I supposedly had was that I became angry after DDay and cried/shouted.

If he hadn’t cheated, there would have been no anger.

It’s just another gaslighting bullshit thing from a wayward, IMHO.

So she felt "unsafe" you wouldn’t leave her alone to pursue her adultery. Well SHAME ON YOU. 🤦‍♂️

I ask this in the most supportive way: have you asked your therapist if you might be suffering from codependency?

Thanks for all your comments.

Yes, codependency is an issue. In particular in the context of living with an active alcoholic. This is the area I have grown so much in over the past year through my involvement with Al-Anon.

My background is also in social work (management) and I was raised by mental health professionals so I have a fairly high ability to contextualize and see the bullshit. I know this isn't healthy, but it is part of who I am.

I hace my next IC (haven't had a session in a while) this Sat.

Your overwhelming fears are paralyzing you.

So I contacted an attorney and was ready to sign on the line to initiate the divorce. I have something to run by this group...

Had a long talk with my wife and she brought up how she feels unsafe again. (This has been brought up many times and she refuses to elaborate.) This time she said her unsafe feelings come from a particular interaction with me.

She feels unsafe, because of you? Holy shit, that's laughable. She jumped off a cliff, you jumped after her, and she feels unsafe with you there. My god, ridiculous. Be aware, you are the one that is unsafe in this relationship. She put you in harms way by having the A, and by hiding money. Two huge breaches of trusts, either one of which is sufficient reason to consider divorce. Now what? She feels unsafe that you might actually divorce her?

Well well well, if it isn't the consequences of her actions...

When she was in the midst of her affair, she was blaming me for all sorts of things, telling me she's never felt loved by me and saying that she needs space. I made a huge mistake here and pursued her persistently as none of this made sense to me. I have since grown a lot in how I would handle something like this in my future.

Relationship history rewriting and bullshit.

She says that me not leaving her alone (she wanted to not speak with me for weeks on end (while living in the same house with our two girls) made her feel unsafe and that she couldn't trust me.

She is a proven liar and cheater, and she can't trust you. Help, my sides are in outer space.

So I see an opportunity for reconciliation here. There finally is definition to this barrier that she claims is the reason she can not reconnect with me. Part of me thinks this is all bullshit. I also am keeping my shit together that the only time in our 23 years together that she felt this way was while she was having an affair and this is "all my fault..."

It is all bullshit, you are correct.

I realized that I was going through hell and doing the best I could. I wish I was in a better, more secure place at that time and could have just let her go. But I didn't and I do believe that her not feeling safe was a direct result of this interaction. I want to clarify that all I did was want to keep talking. She said that his was emotionally abusive and I think that is perhaps an exaggeration.

Not exaggeration, manipulation. Just a little dose of classic DARVO.

She also declared that she was going sober for Jan, Feb and half of March (coincides with her busy work season). She started drinking again Jan 17.

So more lack of reliability and dishonesty. Are you noticing a pattern yet?

I'm trying to be open here, but also not holding my breath at all.

The attorney is cued up. I know what the process will be for me and I'm at peace with moving forward with the divorce if this opening doesn't amount to any progress.

Divorce takes a long time. You'll have plenty of opportunities to change your mind after starting divorce proceedings. I suspect you'll get a nice strong dose of manipulation along the way.

Sending strength!

T/J

You are welcome.

It is important that we understand to some extent how the opposite sex processes love.

For normal couples is important because it is key for happiness and fulfillment

For R couples is even more important. Unfulfilled emotions are often what pushed a WS to do what they did.

Because when you "get them" you can put in the work to make sure your partner truly has it all from you.

This feels dangerously close to, if not, the unmet needs fallacy. You cannot affair proof your marriage if the thing she desires is illicit sex, even if she still gets eros from you. She gets eros from another too! It's a bottomless pit for many cheaters (man or woman).

Call it quits now. The waiting game is not getting you anywhere. Are you sure she has stopped seeing AP(s)? I have heard of people who stop having sex with spouse after an A because of guilt or shame, but I don't think that's the case here. She seems to have told you, or certainly indicated that she's not in love with you. If she's not in love with you, she's not in love. That's not coming back. Once it's gone, it usually doesn't come back, especially from someone who's cheated 2x. She's looking for something else. It sounds like she has you for security and doing all the work, and she does what she pleases. I would not be surprised if she's still seeing someone. The girlfriend activity maybe covering that up. Unfortunately there are friends who will deliberately cover up cheating and provide alibis etc.

I don't want to make you feel bad, but you have to consider this as your life is on hold while she's sniffing roses. You can't live with someone who essentially uses you. I would see a lawyer and file. Keep this private, don't tell her. You can also look for evidence - phone or computer if you can, phone records, financial records (sometimes transactions are revealing) but you need to talk to a lawyer and keep it under your heart. I would go for the divorce, I know you don't want to with kids, but I don't think there's anything to salvage here. 2 affairs in a short period of time, indicates she doesn't love you, no sex or affection, you do all the work - I think she's playing you. Also get an STD check too, because you just don't know. Personally, I wouldn't waste any more time on this. I think you have your answer.

One more thing - be very wary because she says she feels unsafe with you, that means she might be going to attempt a domestic abuse case on you. THIS DOES HAPPEN I HAVE SEEN IT. I have seen it made up out of whole cloth so a wife could get the edge. I hate people who do this as they discredit real victims, but it does happen. Make sure you tell the lawyer this and again, DO NOT TELL YOUR WIFE ANYTHING YOU ARE DOING. I'd record conversations with her too, secretly. It might not be fully legal in some places, I don't care, you need to protect yourself as long as you don't use it in court. Maybe but up a ring system or something like that in the home that will catch conversations but is not secret recording. I would not trust this woman at all. Protect yourself.