SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I've been thinking about a topic that seems to divide people in a very fundamental way: the role of affair details in the reconciliation process. Is it all about the mindset of the betrayed partner and the subsequent actions of the wayward spouse, or are there some details that are simply too damaging to overcome?

For many, reconciliation is about moving forward past mistakes. If the wayward partner demonstrates genuine effort to grow and never repeat their actions, that's enough to begin healing. However, there's another perspective that holds that certain details of an affair would make moving forward impossible, regardless of the wayward spouse's remorse or post-discovery actions.

I'm curious to hear from those who have successfully reconciled: are there any specific details of the affair that you feel would have made it impossible to move forward?

For example:

Specific Sexual Acts: What if the wayward spouse engaged in sexual acts with the affair partner that were always denied to you?

Identity of the Affair Partner: Would it be a deal-breaker if the affair was with a close friend or even a relative?

The Setting of the Betrayal: Would a betrayal that was conducted in your own home be too much to overcome?

The Nature of the Betrayal: What about instances where the wayward partner seemed to fetishize the betrayal or enjoyed the deception itself?

The Affair's Modality: Did you reconcile because the affair was "emotional only" or "physical only," and would the reverse have been a deal-breaker?

Length of the Betrayal: Many seem to find it easier to reconcile after one night stands or short term flings where it appears longer term betrayal seem to harder to forgive.

I've seen many accounts where the details seemed overwhelming, yet the couple reconciled. My question is: for those who made it work, were there any specific details—any lines that, if crossed—would have made reconciliation impossible for you, irrespective of your partner's actions afterward? If so, what distinguished these lines from the ones you were ultimately able to move past?

It's difficult to believe that the specific details of a betrayal don't matter, whilst of course noting these specifics differ person to person. It is reasonable to ask if someone could realistically overcome a long-term, emotional, and physical affair with a partner's sibling that was conducted within their own home, especially if the wayward spouse also fetishized the betrayal and performed sexual acts with the affair partner that were denied to the betrayed spouse.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 12:27 PM, Thursday, August 21st]

A very interesting post.

I too have often wondered about this.

For me, I think that an alcholol fueled ONS would be forgiveable if true remorse, etc. were demonstrated.

Also, for me, I think that if young children were involved I would at least attempt to reconcile if my partner showed true remorse.

The other situations mentioned above would demonstrate a Disrespect and Betrayal too great to even attempt reconciliation.

A practicing psychologist who has videos on Youtube says that when the betrayal happens the betraying cheater has mentally already left the relationship and has little to no value or respect for the relationship or their partner.

From what I have seen over the last 8 decades I have to wholeheartedly agree with her. Personally I would not want to be in a relationship of that sort.

Just my opinion.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 4:03 PM, Thursday, August 21st]

An interesting but potential difficult post for some. Some of the things you list people are already trying to overcome. I think everyone will have their own ideas and it's easy for me, now knowing what my husbands infedelity contained, to say for example bringing her to my home would have been a deal breaker, the reality is I truly believed any infedelity was a deal breaker until I was faced with it. I think what is more important is how the unfaithful spouse/partner reacts once the affair is exposed and their actions from that moment on.

Drowning has this right.

I think most of the betrayed on this site would have said, before they were betrayed, that any infidelity would be a deal breaker.

But for many, turns out it wasn’t a deal breaker.

Now you’re asking these same people what would be a deal breaker.

They don’t know until they’re actually confronted with it.

Any of those things might be a deal breaker for some, and not for others.

But I don’t think any of us can successfully speculate about how we might or might not react.

I can check all of the blocks.

Affair started in my home, first sexual encounter happened on my bed, and involved acts WW told me she didn’t like. AP was around my kids, constantly. Also AP also verbally abused and hit one of kids because my son pretty much discovered the A. WW lied to me post dday2 for 2 years about ending the A. I can go on and on. Think of a fucked up situation and I’m pretty sure I can say yup. Kicked out of the house because i told her it felt like she had a boyfriend (this was before I found out about everything), but really it was because she didn’t want me around so her and AP could have dinner with her parents and my kids and she wanted to see him, not me-to add insult I had only been home 3 months from a long deployment at that time.

Anyway- I don’t know if what I’m doing now is R or not, I’m not really worried about labeling it. Nor am I worried about forgiving her. For myself and my peace I’m working on forgiveness of the actual A, but I am not going to ever forgive some very specific events that happened during, because it’s not possible. I’m accepting that it happened. I have to take this a little deep, but as I’ve been working through it in therapy, I don’t forgive the people involved in my CSA, but I accept that it happened. Not at all comparing the two, but the path of working through it has been very similar.

It has worked for me and I find myself in a much better place now.

@Formerpeopleperson

That's an entirely fair perspective. I could be wrong in my assumption, but I would have thought everyone would have a definitive line in the sand. Though, naturally would presume that would differ person to person.

For example, it's hard to imagine anyone realistically overcoming their partner having a long-term, graphic sexual affair with their parent. My belief is that everyone has a line. Perhaps this is not the case. While I understand many people say that cheating was a deal-breaker until it happened to them, I often wonder how true that statement really is. Is it not that most people simply haven't deeply considered what they would do in that situation? Maybe they have a passing thought, "cheating is a deal-breaker," as a knee-jerk, surface-level response. I often wonder how many of those people, after deeply ruminating on the topic of betrayal, truly changed their mind when it happened.

Asking this question here seems to be the perfect audience to do so. We have all faced infidelity. I presume we have now all deeply ruminated on the subject matter. Surely now, we are all best equipped to answer this question.

I'll use an example to illustrate my point. I might say in passing, "I would never stay friends with a murderer." However, if I've never deeply considered the situation—for instance, if my sister killed her abusive husband—then do I really believe that, or did I just say it? In that specific context, with all the nuances and details, my initial passing comment was never the truth to begin with.

I guess that's an opinion I can never prove; it's just my gut instinct on the topic. I personally don't believe you have to have experienced every conceivable action in life to have a reasonable grasp of how you would react to any situation. Our core values and beliefs, when truly examined, can guide us to a reasonable conclusion without needing to have lived through the exact scenario.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:32 PM, Thursday, August 21st]

It’s totally individually based IMHO.

Quite a few years ago we had a female poster who was livid because her husband had cheated at a bar. He pat the behind of a passing woman. That’s it. No response, no connection to the random woman. For her that was enough, and she was adamant that she was divorcing. For the couple of months, she was on this site she was consistently working towards that divorce because of his infidelity.
Then we have posters here who have reconciled from multiple affair partners. Including some I KNOW have a good marriage.

There are lots of scenarios in life where we have a predetermined line about what’s acceptable. When push comes to shove, that line might move a bit.

@Bigger

Quite a few years ago we had a female poster who was livid because her husband had cheated at a bar. He pat the behind of a passing woman. That’s it. No response, no connection to the random woman. For her that was enough, and she was adamant that she was divorcing. For the couple of months, she was on this site she was consistently working towards that divorce because of his infidelity.

Then we have posters here who have reconciled from multiple affair partners. Including some I KNOW have a good marriage.

I am aware that a person's individual character and traits are the biggest determining factors in whether they are open to reconciliation; in fact, I had a rather long discussion on that very topic here once. I was trying to determine which traits in a person made them more likely to lean one way or another. Quite a interesting debate developed.

However, my question here is a little different. I'm asking specifically to those who were capable of reconciliation: what detail or act would have been a bridge too far for you? What is it about that specific detail that makes it unforgivable to them where the other details were not.

I hope I'm pitching this right; does that make sense?

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:50 PM, Thursday, August 21st]

For starters, replace the word mistake with choice. An affair is not a mistake, it's a conscious choice to possibly destroy a relationship for purely selfish reasons.

Personally I will not waste a moment of time trying to reconcile from a sexual affair. I would forever wonder if she made the same sounds, said the same words, if the sex was better with to him, etc. My wife was sexting with a married coworker and that was enough for me to ask her to pack a suitcase and leave.

If she told another guy she loved him I would just walk away.

This is an interesting post. Ive thought long and hard about this issue when I was early in my reconciliation.

My wife’s affair was entirely physical. I know for some people this would make it tougher but for me this made it easier to reconcile (my desire) without any emotional connection between them. I was also already aware prior to her affair that she was unhappy with our sex life.

To compound things I inadvertently became aware of explicit sexual details of her affair. Many of these details are things that a wandering wife would never allow her husband to know if she wanted to reconcile, which she did. Essentially imagine the worst case scenario in terms of permitted acts, her levels of enthusiasm, his success satisfying her and, of course physical comparisons about things that I was already deeply insecure about.

Previously I would have thought any infidelity to be a deal breaker. To also be aware of all these devastating details would have finished almost any relationship. Reflecting back Im shocked that I didn’t immediately throw up my hands and leave the marriage. This would have been my advice to any friend in this situation but I did the opposite. I buckled down and worked hard to reconcile, which over time was successful.

I would never suggest it wasn’t difficult, the mind movies still effect today me but for our family and my continued feeling toward her it was worth it.

** member to member **

Is it all about the mindset of the betrayed partner and the subsequent actions of the wayward spouse, or are there some details that are simply too damaging to overcome?

Some people D after infidelity because of the infidelity (though I think it's much more than that for many BSes who choose R). In any case, it's clear that some people are unwilling and/or unable to to R, and it's clear that some people R, some happily, some not so much.

I'm pretty sure, however, that SI (and the many other sources available for research) does not provide enough data to support much in the way of conclusions.

IMO, anyone who decides to stay or go based on a pre-infidelity guess about their response may be doing themselves a major disservice. Moltke, mediated by Tyson, said, 'Everybody has plans until they get hit for the first time.'

Infidelity was NOT an automatic deal-breaker for W and me, but I surely did not let that bind me on or after d-day. Our MC put the probabilities of D & R at 50-50 on d-day.

As others have written, I don't know what my line in the sand would have been. I don't think anyone knows what their line really is until it's tested. W tested mine; she didn't cross it to the extent of ending our M ... except that we changed our M, so maybe she did kill our M ... or maybe I did, or maybe both of us did ... you have to have a mind for metaphor to understand, and you need to accept that metaphor trumps logic.

I know you think you have a line. You haven't told us how it was tested.

For many, reconciliation is about moving forward past mistakes.

I guess you could say that, but it's a very vague way of describing recovering from being betrayed.

I don't see recovery in those terms, and I doubt that many who have R's do. I saw it as the better of 2 options. I chose R because I thought we'd create a loving M that helped both of us live a life we wanted to live. We didn't wrote off any 'mistake'; an A is not a mistake.

I had no interest in a marriage with a major characteristic of 'no more cheating'; that was way too low a requirement. Fortunately, it was way too low a bar for my W, too.

I also see 'moving past the A' as a major minimization. I think minimizing is the wrong approach to recovering from betrayal between adults. (That doesn't mean I think kids should minimize betrayals - it just means I don't want to spend energy thinking about betrayals between kids.) IMO, minimizing probably plays a part in the stories of most of the people who come here feeling awful long after learning of the A. (I don't blame them - many 'experts' then and now recommend rug-sweeping, which is maximum minimization.)

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:33 PM, Thursday, August 21st]

The idea that we cannot know our line in the sand until they are tested is a common one,

As others have written, I don't know what my line in the sand would have been. I don't think anyone knows what their line really is until it's tested.

​While this may be true for some situations, it seems to dismiss our capacity for introspection and our ability to meditate on theoretical scenarios. It suggests that people have an absolute inability to reflect on what they would do in a crisis.

​I believe it's possible to know what your line is, especially in extreme situations. To take this point to the extreme and remove any room for doubt, I can definitely state: if I had unwavering evidence that my fiancé was a pedophile, our relationship would be over.

​I don't need to live out this scenario to know what my response would be. I can state this with confidence because I know my principles, my character, and my view on such actions. This is an absolute truth claim for me.

​The logic of many who share the first view would suggest that my statement is untrue until I've lived through that experience. This implies that we can never truly know how we'd respond to a situation until we're in it. While some people may have more flexible morals, surely not everyone's moral compass can bend to every conceivable betrayal.

​This view leads to the illogical conclusion that we cannot know our principles or moral lines whatsoever simply because they haven't been tested in every possible scenario. By this logic, none of us could claim we're not cheaters because Scarlett Johansson hasn't personally knocked on our door and asked for a "quickie." This way of thinking strips out even the possibility of a sensible conversation on the topic.

​

I guess you could say that, but it's a very vague way of describing recovering from being betrayed.

​Yes, it was a terse description. However, the nature of recovering from betrayal is not the topic under discussion here. There are many other posts on this topic by different people who are better equipped to address it than I am.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 6:00 PM, Thursday, August 21st]

My two major examples of infidelity with 2 partners - one was a lover many years ago who just up and left and that was the end of it. He basically left for a better economic situation (people might be surprised at how often this crops up). I never heard from him or had contact again, it was just I'm leaving, goodbye. Took a long time to recover from.

With my spouse, it was online dating apps and a longtime EA with an old GF. Nothing physical. That it was nothing physical was an immense help. It put it in a different category for me. Fantasy vs a sustained and contrived reality. He had tremendous stress in his life and this was a fantasy way of dealing with it. Not healthy or helpful, but understandable to me. I hit the roof, which also helps because I think so many people take it really personally and think it means something bad about themselves, or they get anxious, depressed. I get flaming mad and let it all out. I also recognize that even though it hurts personally.....that's not the kind of thing that reflects directly on me. It's about him and his problems or needs. I'm not someone who does take a lot of things personally.

I do have a lot of lines in the sand, and to me they are pretty firm. I would not tolerate anything involving a friend or relative - you're GONE, BABY, GONE. To me, that's the worst kind of thing anyone can do - it's not just about the sexual infidelity, that's such a basic disloyalty and contempt on the part of both people - a sibling, a best friend, whatever. To me, that really is unforgivable. Also, cheating in the family home, someone who uses our bed to cheat in, that is unforgivable. Again, it's such an expression of disrespect and contempt to me, such a violation of privacy and the basic marital bond. I could not get past that. I would not forgive a serial cheater. These are solid lines to me, I can't imagine accepting someone back after these. I just would not. There are other things that probably would be true, like physical abuse of me, or the kids (I don't have them, but if I did, treatment of the kids would be paramount). Beyond that, it would depend on how they were conducting themselves....in general, I'm not a supporter of recon, I generally believe in moving on, life is too short to keep patching a life raft with holes in it. I feel that people show you what they think of you, what you mean to them, or what their priorities are, and I pretty much take them at what it seems to be. I don't generally believe people change - they can - but most don't, so when I see a lot of evil shit....I just assume that's the way it is, that's the way they are, let me go my own way. I can only tolerate as much as I'm willing to tolerate....and that's not that much.

I would also not tolerate a long term affair, if I found that one existed. If a guy is going to continually put sex, energy, money, emotions, into another woman, sometimes for years....that just means to me that our relationship is dead at the core anyway and why should I waste myself on someone who would treat me like that. Like a harem or concubinage or some such. Go have your harem somewhere else, I wouldn't waste myself on someone like that.

Also, I would not stay involved with someone who got an OW pregnant. Never. That's a firm line, and again, happens more than we think. It's the usual disrespect of cheating compounded by real carelessness and if a child is born, someone who's going to STAY in your life forever. You can't just disregard a child.

The most forgivable things to me are one timers that really are purely sexual and don't seem to involve a lot of emotion or complexity or disrespect to me (aside from the lying). I understand everyone has sexual feelings for more than one person, we just have to keep control of them, but sometimes we lose control. I might forgive a mainly sexual affair (unless I get an STD - then, LOOK OUT!) if it's an ONS or one off because it's really THEIR problem, or their issue. I don't really think it reflects on me, unless we have a real sexual problem in our marriage - no sex or bad sex. Especially if he just comes to me and says, look I screwed up, I did a bad thing, here it is, please forgive me. I might very well say the hell with it if it IS a one off or ONS and not a pattern. If it's serial cheating or hookers, or Ashley Madison....then it's a no go....continuous cheating is DISRESPECT and that's my bottom line, if you really keep disrespecting me, treating me bad, lying to me over and over so I can't trust what you say....why would I want to continue in that. I can do better elsewhere or I can do better just on my own. I won't keep eating a shit sandwich, I prefer STEAK!

BondJaneBond

Fantastic response, exactly what I was looking. Each of your lines, why they were lines and a logic for why they.

Disrespect seems to be a recurring theme, seems some can forgive infidelity but disrespect generally is too far. Though one could argue any form of infidelity is disrespect, I can see the difference.

I'll have to think about this more. Yet I'm not sure I want to go down that rabbit hole.

Clearly I have thought about this topic with reading all these stories. And I wonder why I keep doing it. I mean reading the stories and considering all this. Do you? Is there a conscious reason for some of your questions and how they relate to your personal experience?

I am reconciled, I think. I get the sense that you are not content with my answers to previous questions. It feels like you would not be comfortable with my answer here too.

Many here are uncomfortable with the topic of what is a "line in the sand" for them because it feels judgey and makes the situation impersonal. Most people that reconcile already feel harshly judged by others. That's my opinion obviously.

I will think about it more and answer. But maybe you could also think about yourself and your own story and expand upon why this is a concern or sticky thought in your head.

It seems to me that this discussion about the betrayed getting details that might doom the R attempt is missing the element that the betrayed often deeply desires those details as part of their healing process. To me, the talk of "let’s all just move forward" is nonsense. The betrayed gets to dictate what they need to heal. Their betrayer sure as fuck shouldn’t get a say in it, and clinicians who condescend to us that it’s for our own good that we don’t know, I don’t believe for a second that they have first hand experience.

Regarding our lines: I think they are more like corrosion than an immediate explosion. Sometimes some people end things immediately. It seems like a lot of people marinate in it and take time to see if in fact it is a total deal breaker. Can take years. Hollywood doesn’t make movies about that, but it does seem to be more typical human behavior. No offense, but I think talking like a future reaction to a hypothetical situation is metaphysically certain is silly.

Clearly I have thought about this topic with reading all these stories. And I wonder why I keep doing it. I mean reading the stories and considering all this. Do you?

No, I no longer wonder why I do this, I'm incredibly introspective by nature and have a deep understanding of my interest in the topic and why I keep coming back. If it's healthy or not is slightly more debatable. It's complex and would be meaningless to anyone else. I hope you find the same clarity. It's a relief.

Is there a conscious reason for some of your questions and how they relate to your personal experience?

That would depend on the question I was asking. In this case I was specifically interested in the reasons why some acts were unforgivable to some people and other acts were forgivable. Trying to gauge any logic or rational for these decisions. I think getting to the root of this could actually be quite clarifying.

I am reconciled, I think. I get the sense that you are not content with my answers to previous questions. It feels like you would not be comfortable with my answer here too.

Apologies, my memory for usernames is not great. I don't recall interacting with you previously nor feeling uncomfortable with your views. It's possible I disagreed with them. I'm not sure.

Many here are uncomfortable with the topic of what is a "line in the sand" for them because it feels judgey and makes the situation impersonal. Most people that reconcile already feel harshly judged by others. That's my opinion obviously.

Yeah I see that, I suppose they don't have to interact with the post given this. I don't intend to make be feel uncomfortable.

@InkHulk

No offense, but I think talking like a future reaction to a hypothetical situation is metaphysically certain is silly.

Granted, however I think if you if you couldn't definitively say you dump your partner should they turn out to be a pedo their is a worse word for you. Hope we can agree on that. (Presuming that's the scenario you're referring to)

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 8:05 PM, Thursday, August 21st]

Granted, however I think if you if you couldn't definitively say you dump your partner should they turn out to be a pedo their is a worse word for you. Hope we can agree on that.

Ooo, some good old fashioned internet sniping. I’m here for this.

Again, sir, subtleties. What do you mean by "pedo"? A person who has an attraction? What if the person has never acted on it, has identified in themselves that they have an unhealthy attraction and has worked to never act on it?

And there is all kind of behavior of people covering for abusers. Things like incest being kept as the dirty family secret. I’m not saying that is good, but it does seem to be human. People doing a terrible calculus of seemingly condoning evil in order to survive (sometimes literally). This community has to walk that "integrity adjacent" line for something not illegal but incredibly repugnant, and many people IRL shame us for even considering staying with a cheater. I don’t find it helpful.

No subtleties necessary for my decision when it comes to dumping someone who has sexual attraction to children. I didn't think that would be a controversial take.

This community has to walk that "integrity adjacent" line for something not illegal but incredibly repugnant, and many people IRL shame us for even considering staying with a cheater

Well that's your opinion, I don't believe everyone in this community does walk an integrity adjacent line. Nor do I think that asking people who've reconciled what would be a bridge too far is inherently insulting. I actually think if people engaged it could be very enlightening. Certainly for me, id hope others also.

I didn't think that would be a controversial take.

👍🏼

Well that's your opinion, I don't believe everyone in this community does walk an integrity adjacent line.

Funny where you draw the line between opinion and certainty. Cause I’ve been here for three years, listening to this group, both receiving and giving the kind of nuanced advice that seems to help people thru this living hell. The types who actually are black and white and leave immediately don’t seem to tend to show up and pour out their anguish. Your approach seems unusually cerebral and theoretical. Not saying it’s wrong, but it is different than most that I’ve read here, and most are living deeply in the gray.

Nor do I think that asking people who've reconciled what would be a bridge too far is inherently insulting.

Never said it was. I think projection of certainty outside of lived experience is unhelpful. Just my opinion.